Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-18 15:59:32

Hi

I wonder if anyone can help with my question please?

I am going to buy a programmer for both the 49lf004B and 49lf002A chips. However, I am not sure if I should buy a programmer with the PLCC32 mounted on the PCB or as an extra adapter?

I have also seen boards with both: FWH/LPC PLCC32 and PLCC32 mounted on the PCB and wondered what the difference is?

I have seen many programmers listed on Ebay and would like to know if many of these are any good? I was going to post a link, but was unable to at the moment.

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks for reading.

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-18 16:09:39

Hi,
Quote:
I am going to buy a programmer for both the 49lf004B and 49lf002A chips. However, I am not sure if I should buy a programmer with the PLCC32 mounted on the PCB or as an extra adapter?

I have also seen boards with both: FWH/LPC PLCC32 and PLCC32 mounted on the PCB and wondered what the difference is?
The devices you want to program are LPC (Low Pin Count).  Some programmers have this socket on board and others require an adapter.  Programmers with one PLCC32 socket don't support FWH/LPC.

It will probably cost less to have the socket on the programmer and most include PLCC32 and FWH/LPC.  Some programmers even include a PLCC32 to DIP28 socket.
[quote]I have seen many programmers listed on Ebay and would like to know if many of these are any good? I was going to post a link, but was unable to at the moment. [quote]If you're going to be programming FLASH devices, any PCB3 that can be powered from an external adapter is probably okay.  PCB3 programmers will start having problems when the device being programmed draws more than about 30mA from VCC.  Many current generation FLASH don't need an elevated VPP for programming, so you won't have problems with VPP instability.

The only programmer I'd recommend is the Willem 4.1 and it's no longer being sold.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-18 16:16:10

Thanks for the reply.

I`m not sure if I am allowed to post links, so will stick to asking about the type, is this type considered reasonable: `Advanced Willem EPROM Programmer Update Software 0.98D5`?

Thanks

*Edit, it also says: Addition New MCS-51Adapter + DIP28 to PLCC32 Adapter
and says: Advanced Willem EPROM Programmer PCB4.5C 

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-18 16:36:01

Hi,
Quote:
I`m not sure if I am allowed to post links, so will stick to asking about the type, is this type considered reasonable: `Advanced Willem EPROM Programmer Update Software 0.98D5`?
I have several issues with that design.
  • It uses a step-up regulator for VPP that can cause problems with VPP > 12.5V.
  • It has a USB power option that shouldn't be used.   The VPP regulator was designed to draw about 300mA from VCC and that's too much for a device to draw from a USB port without negotiating with the host.   Not following the USB spec can damage the USB port.
  • All Willem based programmers except the 4.1 will have VCC voltage drop problems with devices that draw more than about 30mA from VCC.
  • Low voltage support is a hack.
  • There are no publicly available schematic or component diagrams (when this design is heavily based on the original Willem collaboration).
  • Sivava took open source software and made it closed.   This is an insult to the people who contributed to the program.
  • Sivava broke off contact with Willem.org and refuses to acknowledge or correct the flaws in the program and their programmers.
Other than that, it's a fine programmer -- for certain devices.

I won't recommend anything I wouldn't buy myself.   The only Willem type programmer I'd buy is the Willem 4.1 and it has been discontinued.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-18 16:50:47

Ok, thanks.

I have two points on what you have said:
1. I thought that a USB port worked correctly up to 500mA? Are you suggesting that serial or parallel ports are more suitable?

2. As the Willem 4.1 is no longer available, is there one that is available and more suitable than the one that I am talking about? When you say, "for certain devices" can you be more specific please?

Thanks

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-18 17:03:14

Hi,
Quote:
I have two points on what you have said:
1. I thought that a USB port worked correctly up to 500mA?
That's correct, BUT the client must negotiate with the host for currents above 100mA.  There's no intelligence on the programmer to do this and it will simply take what it wants.  The program can't negotiate either because it doesn't know what type of programmer is connected and what power source it's using.  So this was a marginal idea that was poorly implemented.
Quote:
Are you suggesting that serial or parallel ports are more suitable?
Serial ports will be faster and more readily supported in the future.  I haven't seen a Willem type USB data and power programmer that I'd buy.  If the programmer doesn't conform to USB power specs or provide an option for external power, I wouldn't buy one or connect it to my computer.
Quote:
2. As the Willem 4.1 is no longer available, is there one that is available and more suitable than the one that I am talking about?
None that I'd recommend.  I have a small number of 4.1 programmers that I can sell in North America.
Quote:
When you say, "for certain devices" can you be more specific please?
I think it would be suitable for second generation FLASH devices.  These devices are more tolerant of low VCC conditions and generate voltages required for proper programming and erasing internally.  Some of these devices are dependent on proper VPP, but most PCB3 variants should be able to provide stable VPP=12.5V.

Okay to read CMOS EPROMs.  Can probably program CMOS EPROMs.  Can't blank check properly, so only use new EPROMs or EPROMs that were erased by a someone who knows what they're doing.

I don't use serial devices, so don't know what their programming requirements are.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-18 17:15:34

Thank you for the info.

You obviously know what you are talking about.

If the USB programmer has an external power supply and lets say the programmer is also fitted to a powered USB hub, would this help at all?

I`m only really after a programmer that will programme and rewrite BIOS (CMOS) eeproms, specifically the 49lf004B and 49lf002A chips. I also take note of the draw on the USB port, but unless there is something else available, I can`t see what else to use?

I have looked at the willem.org site and they only appear to list two types; the pro 4 and 4.5.

Thanks for your time and advice.

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-18 17:30:36

Quote:
If the USB programmer has an external power supply and lets say the programmer is also fitted to a powered USB hub, would this help at all?
It depends on how it was implemented.  If the connector for the external adapter interrupted power from USB, it would work.
Quote:
I`m only really after a programmer that will programme and rewrite BIOS (CMOS) eeproms, specifically the 49lf004B and 49lf002A chips. I also take note of the draw on the USB port, but unless there is something else available, I can`t see what else to use?
A PCB3 variant powered by an external adapter would work for those devices.  Those devices are FLASH (bulk erase) vs. EEPROM which are byte erasable.  Those devices are similar, but not enough to use either term interchangably.  My background is EE and details are important to me.
Quote:
I have looked at the willem.org site and they only appear to list two types; the pro 4 and 4.5.
That's a problem.  The 4.5 will support FWH/LPC with an adapter.  It can't support serial devices and requires a voltage mod to be able to support EPROMs.  I have a copyrighted schematic that is free for your personal, non-commercial usage to modify power.  If you don't need to support byte wide TSOP48 devices, it's an expensive option.

The PRO 4 is a PCB3 variant.  Willem says it uses a better inductor so shouldn't have the usual problems with VPP > 12.5V, but it still draws too much current to be powered by USB.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-19 12:52:26

Hi

Am I allowed to post a link to another forum; I found the forum entries very interesting and aimed at the `TOP2007 programmer`, of which I have seen, but not used?

Apparently the TOP2007 appears to be slated by several people, someone refers to a `Willem Programmer` and `Galep4 or 5`, the latter I have never heard of.

The forum is on the MCUMALL site.

*Edit - Now reading about: TOP2049, TOP2005+, TOP853, EasyPRO, SmartPRO, Wellon, Xeltek, True-USB Willem programmer(GQ-3X) Pack PRO, True-USB Willem programmer(GQ-3X) Light Pack, True USB Willem Programmer (GQ-2X), Dual Power Willem Universal EPROM Programmer, Enhanced Dual Power Willem Programmer (PCB5.0C)

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-20 07:23:25

I have a slightly different question on the same subject.

I have found, from many years ago, some old parallel port programmers. They were originaly used to programme PIC16C84 and
PIC16F84 on wafer cards or wafer PCBs. Perhaps some people might remember these from about 10 years ago?

They look abit like this:

http://www.interesting-devices.com/asp/product.asp?recorprod=1&product=170&ca...

Well my question is this: are they any good (above programmer) for programming 49lf004B and 49lf002A? They only seem to have a 24 pin Ziff socket, so I can see that the 32 pin interfaces won`t fit directly onto the board. Perhaps, if this is an option, there are some 24 pin to FWH/LPC PLCC32 and PLCC32 adapters? Perhaps I can use something to convert the 24 pin Zif into a 32 pin Ziff or some other adapter?

From memory, they (I say they because I have about 5 of these things) are all slightly different from each other. They are from the DOS days and I doubt that they would work in XP. They were excellent and I used to use them with HEX and BIN files. They all required an external power supply and as said, work from the parallel port. I also remember that cpus faster than 486`s needed to be slowed down to work!   

Any comments?

Thanks

*Edit - What about something like this:

Serial programmer with cable.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Serial-E-eprom-Bus-SPI-EEPROM-Programmer-RS232-Cable_W0...

Various adapters.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350025951238&ssPage...

All that should be required is a power supply and some software? Would this work?

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-20 15:48:10

Hi,
Quote:
... old parallel port programmers. They were originaly used to programme PIC16C84 and PIC16F84 on wafer cards or wafer PCBs. ... my question is this: are they any good (above programmer) for programming 49lf004B and 49lf002A?
That type of programmer will only work with serial devices.  It's a subset of the circuitry contained on most Willem programmers.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-20 16:00:16

Quote:
That type of programmer will only work with serial devices.   It's a subset of the circuitry contained on most Willem programmers.


When you say serial devices, what do you mean? Do you mean that a serial programmer will only work through a serial port? Or do you mean something else? Perhaps you are saying that PIC16C84 chips are serial devices?

With regards to my original question in my last post; surely a parallel port or serial port programmer will work ok? If USB programmers are so problematic, then there aren`t too many other ports to use!


Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-20 16:47:55

Hi,
Quote:
When you say serial devices, what do you mean? Do you mean that a serial programmer will only work through a serial port? Or do you mean something else? Perhaps you are saying that PIC16C84 chips are serial devices?
I meant that those programmers will only support serial devices, like PIC16C84.
Quote:
With regards to my original question in my last post; surely a parallel port or serial port programmer will work ok?
They'll work as long as the hardware and software you're using support them.  Serial and parallel ports are considered "obsolete" and are being replaced with USB, Firewire, etc.
Quote:
If USB programmers are so problematic, then there aren`t too many other ports to use!
USB can support EPROM/FLASH programmers.  The only thing problematic about USB programmers is their software and whether they conform to the USB spec.  For example, the "true USB" programmers sold on mcumall.com have power problems (voltage drop, don't know if they're intelligent USB devices) and software problems.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-20 17:20:45

Thanks, that clears that up.

Except, that I really don`t have a clue which programmer to buy. There are so many, yet I`m now concerned that if I do buy one, that it probably won`t be very good.

I notice that Ebay prices are much lower than mcumall.com, for what appears to be the same items? Perhaps they are just clones of the original and made in places like China. However, some of the TOP programmers listed on mcumall.com are the same ones that also come from China!

All these considerations and no real option to buy something of quality.

Thanks for your help.

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-27 11:23:44

One thing that I have found out and think is correct, the Advanced Dual Powered Willem EPROM Programmer (PCB4.5C) is actually a parallel port programmer that uses (if required) the USB port for power. This programmer also has an AC power adapter port.

So, after reading about this on a Nissan website, you don`t actually need to use the USB adapter at all, as it appears to only be used as a power source. If you choose not to use the USB port you need to use the AC power adapter port, which when reading further, is required anyway when using higher voltages. I would guess that this is what you were possibly referring to, when you spoke about the USB ports limitations? But as this particular programmer appears to be a parallel port programmer, then the USB port can be disregarded?

Thanks

*Edit, I also note that not all versions of this programmer have the AC power port, many do, so this may well be another consideration when buying one of these.

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: DL - 2008-02-27 14:53:11

Hi,

Quote:
... the Advanced Dual Powered Willem EPROM Programmer (PCB4.5C) is actually a parallel port programmer that uses (if required) the USB port for power. This programmer also has an AC power adapter port.
All Willem type programmers use the parallel port for data.  The USB port is only used for power (which is a bad idea because they draw more current than they should without negotiating with the host).

Quote:
... not all versions of this programmer have the AC power port, many do, so this may well be another consideration when buying one of these.
The versions that can only be powered from USB aren't worth buying.

I'm not referring to the "true USB" type programmers that mcumall.com is selling.  They appear to be better, but I've read that they still have some voltage issues and don't know if the programmer conforms to the USB spec (i.e. negotiating whether it can draw more than 100mA).

I have a small number of Willem 4.1 programmers left and Willem has kindly removed my North American sales restriction.

HTH,
Dennis

Re: please help with 49LF004B

By: freddy - 2008-02-27 16:49:23

Well I was surprised to read that they were all parallel port programmers, as I thought that the USB port was something other than a power source.

How much are these programmers, the ones you have and where do you sell them?